From 30+ years in construction to finally building your own portfolio, with Nikki Smith

Nikki and her husband Mark have got over 35 years experience in the property world through their construction business, creating bespoke homes for their clients. 

But in 2020 during the first lockdown they decided it was time to put their experience of developing properties for other people to better use for themselves, and started to build their own recurring income by investing in their own deals. 

They joined our Inside HMO Investing programme, and since then they’ve moved quickly, acquiring a portfolio of single lets, HMOs and serviced accommodation.  

In today’s episode, Nikki shares exactly what they’ve been up to over the last couple of  years, including what’s worked for them and what has been more of a struggle. 

So I hope you enjoy, I hope you get inspired, and if I can be so cheeky, I hope you take 2 seconds to leave us a review wherever you’re listening to this today.  

They make a huge difference to me in terms of helping new aspiring investors find the show, so if the podcast has been in anyway helpful to you, I’d love for you to pay it forward. I really appreciate it. 

Now let’s get into the show - oh and by the way, if the audio sounds a little funky, I was recording this in my car in December during that really cold spell on my headphones microphone, so there you go.

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Transcript

Mike (00:06):

Thanks for joining me today on the podcast. I am really excited to share today's episode with you. My guest is Nikki Smith, one half of Mr. And Mrs. Smith Developments. Now, Nikki first came onto my radar right at the start of her investing story. Her and her husband, mark, they've got over 35 years experience in the property world through their construction business, creating bespoke homes for their clients. But in 2020, during the first lockdown, they decided it was time to put their experience, their years of developing properties for other people to better use for themselves. And at that point, they started to build their own recurring income by investing in their own deals. They joined our inside HMO investing program at that time, and since then, they have moved quickly acquiring a portfolio of single lets HMO's and Serviced Accommodation. And in today's episode, Nikki shares exactly what they've been up to over the last couple of years, including what's worked for them and what has been more of a struggle. 

(01:10)
So I hope you enjoy it. I hope you get inspired, and if I can be so cheeky to ask, I hope you would take two seconds to leave us as a review wherever you're listening to this today. They make a huge difference to me in terms of helping new aspiring investors find the show. So, if the podcast has been in any way helpful to you, I would love for you to pay it forwards by leaving a review and helping other people find it as well. I really appreciate it. Now, let's get into the show. Oh, and by the way, if the audio sounds a little funky, I was recording this before Christmas, so back in December during that really cold spell, and I was sat in my car because I'd got to the office, forgotten my keys, so I was locked out waiting for Will to arrive and let me in. And I just had the microphone on my headphones. Not an ideal setup, but we cracked on with it. Anyway, so there you go. 

Mike (02:05):

Well, 

Mike (02:06):

Nikki, I am delighted to have you on the podcast today. I am, uh, I'm saying this, if anyone's what, I dunno if anyone will watch the video of this. I dunno what we're gonna do with the video of it just yet, but they'll see that I'm kind of sat here all wrapped up in my car, and you're looking all lovely in festive with a, a Christmas star behind you. It's, it's a much nicer backdrop than mine, but I'm, I'm, I'm delighted to have you here. Thank you for joining me today. 

Nikki (02:29):

No problem. Glad to be here. It's like an honor 

Mike (02:32):

<laugh>. Well, I'm, I'm glad to have you. Like I say, I'm, uh, you know, we, we've known each other for a couple of years now, it feels like. Um, and it's, it's been been great to see what you and Mark have been up to along that time. And hopefully we can, we can share that with our audience today, A little bit of inspiration and, uh, some, maybe some advice and some tips about what's worked for you and maybe what hasn't along the way as well. But, um, before, before we dig into that, I guess I always just like to start off off with, uh, a bit of a, an an introduction to find out a bit more about who you are personally. And I've, I've mentioned Mark as well, your partner in crime. So, uh, you know, just before we dig into the property side of things, tell us a little bit about, you know, who you are for your best, what's going on in your life outside of property. 

Nikki (03:16):

Okay, so we are Mark and Nikki Smith and Mr. And Mrs. Smith development. Um, and, uh, I, in a formal life was, um, I was in logistics. So for 14 years, um, I started up as a business development manager, cut my teeth on that. Then progressed to account management. I was a trade lane manager, so I was in and out of Europe quite often, managing France, Spain, Italy, and Portugal. Um, and goods coming in and out of the uk. Uh, and then I, I was poached and I went to an amazing company where I was a sales manager for probably about three years, um, until I fell pregnant with our youngest. Um, and yeah, and then I decided that obviously, well, not obviously, but I didn't wanna sort of zoom up and down the motorway the air one every day, which was two hours each way at the time because, um, there was stupid roadworks on it. So for two hours a day I'd be start in traffic there and on the West Am on the way back in east the driving a, um, but I actually did love also working for that company. But yeah, so life moved on and, um, mark already, um, was had and has done, he, he's operated and own his own building company for, whew, 30 odd years he's been in a trade. Okay. Um, so he, we just decided we'd John forces and I'd become a builder. So <laugh>. Yeah. Um, obviously, 

(04:45)
Obviously. Uh, so yeah, we just decided I'd do a bit more sales for him and we'd grow the business and we'd go from there. Um, so yeah, mark is, uh, a builder and he started life as a joiner Okay. Way back when he was a, a we lab. And, um, grew and developed from there. Uh, and like I say now, owns his own building company and we specialize in bespoke renovations, new builds, big meaty sort of remodeling projects. So he is fully versed in how the, how our renovation goes, um, in knows houses inside out, like the back of town, which is obviously in our game is amazing. Um, and yeah, so I decided to join forces with him there. We grew the business. Um, and alongside that, well, probably previous to them, he had actually done a couple of, um, flips with a, with a friend of mine. She'd funded the, and he'd done all the work. Um, but it was kind of done in a little bit of a amateur way. Should I say <laugh>? 

Mike (05:49):

What? What do you mean by that? 

Nikki (05:51):

Well, he just, you know, it was just kind of done it without the full knowledge of, um, he kind, kind of bought a house and thought he could make a bit of money on it, and he did. And, but my friend kind of handled all the, the, the backside of it, a lot of all the legalities, and she didn't really wanna do that. Um, and it just became a bit of a chore, I think. So it didn't really take off, but I knew there was something in that, and that's, and I knew that, you know, we could do something with that. And with Mark's skills, why the hell weren't we doing it <laugh>? So, um, absolutely. Yeah. So we obviously, I, I left work, um, gave me And 

Mike (06:31):

How long ago was that? You said that was when you were pregnant with your first, so like, can we 

Nikki (06:34):

Talk? So Max is nearly seven. Okay. So Max is nearly seven, and probably I spent a couple of years, uh, just doing the building game and, and looking at the max really, um, as you do when you've got a little one, like, you'll know, um mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So I, I just really enjoyed that time with Max and I was lucky enough to be able to spend all of, you know, just be a mom for a bit because we did, we are a blended family. Um, mark has two kids from his first marriage. I have a little, well, she's not little, she's 19. Um, I have a Stay your 

Mike (07:04):

Little girl though, 

Nikki (07:06):

<laugh>. Yeah, she's always my little girl. Um, I overdosed from a previous relationship and I always have to work, I always have to be nine to five. Well, I wasn't nine to five, it was probably half seven till half seven. Um, I always had to be on it working, you know, away from the house. And Olivia always, I always felt suffered a little bit. So it was really nice when we had Max. Um, and it was one of the things we, we decided when we had Max together, um, we were both older parents, so we, this time we wanted to make sure that I could be at home. So that was one of the drivers behind, um, you know, working together. So yeah, um, probably did a couple of years of working with Mark, do admin, selling the business. We, we go out and meet clients together. We introduce the company, we sell it. Um, people seem to like us and buyers, um, and we kind of did that. But along the side that in the background, obviously, I, I was on Instagram, um, I came across she Good Cells, <laugh>. Oh, uh, oh God. And that was a fuel, fuel for the fire Mike <laugh>. So, um, I found yourself a Victorian, I saw the amazing HMOs you guys were doing, and I thought, bloody hell, this is quite, this is cool. Who knew a rental could look like this? They're like, amazing. 

Mike (08:27):

And was was the idea of HMOs new to you at this point in time? Or like, were you 

Nikki (08:31):

Yeah, I not really sort of come across HMOs by that point. I, I, I obviously knew about Ettes, um, yeah. Um, things like that. But I've not really sort of grasped the concepts of HMOs. And, um, I obviously saw what you two were doing. I thought, what the hell, this is amazing. I also came across B Space at the time, and I just loved her lovely Jade and interiors. Yeah. And she, I just thought, this is, this is something I would, would really like to do. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, I apology guys for a while and just kept watching what you were doing. I thought, you know, we could do this, we could do this. Um, and I just thought, well, cannon was born from there, really how we ended up coming into property investing. And 

Mike (09:13):

What, what was Mark's view on this at the time as a, a builder with sort of 30 plus years in, in the industry? I'm trying to understand his mindset, his point of view. You know, he, you said he, he, he's done this pretty much since he was, was a lad. So, uh, he, he's very familiar with the industry, but predominantly for, for other people. Was there, you know, builders generally is, is there something that you think that that stops them thinking, you know, I could do this for myself, or I should be doing this for myself? Or is it just, you know, too busy doing what's in front of you to think about? 

Nikki (09:51):

I think there's a little bit of both really. Um, I think with Mark, you obviously, he was busy with, with big, big, big projects. Um, and they take a hell of a lot of management. Um, you know, he's, he's working on properties that, well, we've just finished one that, you know, it was about, it's probably worth over a million now. Um, so he is working on big renovation projects and it, and he is working with like 20 odd guys that he has to manage day in, day out. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And I just think it just, you know, it was just head space. Like, you know, how did he manage that and do this as well. Yeah. Um, and also just a little bit of not really understanding how investment works and how you, you go about recycling the cash and working with Angels and, you know, it was a case. I think he was just a little bit old school thinking you have to save up and get all the money in a pot and be able to sort of move from there rather than working with Angels, really, which is what I kind of brought to the party. 

Mike (10:50):

Interesting. Okay. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And the, the, I guess the, um, the potential risk is you've got this successful construction business, which I guess you were relying on for your income. Yeah. You have got this idea to build up your own portfolio as well. That's, I guess it's gonna put more strain on the construction business short term. If you start saying to Mark, Hey, I wanna pull your resource, like we're gonna renovate this house for us, great long term will have that rental income, but uh, actually your guys that could be working on a million pound house for somebody else, I'm gonna need them to come in, renovate this hmo. Was there a, a conflict at all there, kind of balancing those resources? 

Nikki (11:26):

Well, in fairness, he, he doesn't do the bills for still. Okay. He doesn't do the bills. So he still basically full-time with his, with his construction business. Um, don't get me wrong, when I'm having a mayor on site with another builder, or I need somebody to speak in their language, um, then that's when I sort of real mark in and wheel him in <laugh> and go, you talk to them. Um, but I, we, we use external bill teams still because we need to be able to manage well. He needs to be able to manage that and we need that for lending purposes as well. So, um, 

Mike (12:03):

So that was a decision you made from the start? 

Nikki (12:05):

Yeah. It's just, we, we, the bills that he does are too big to spare the, the staff or the labor at the moment for ours. I mean, ideally the aim is in a couple of years time probably that, you know, will have built the portfolio enough to supporters that he will be able to then, you know, maybe do one project a year for rms and then sort of, um, step away a little bit and do our refurbs and manage our bills. Okay. Cause that's ideally what I would like him to do. <laugh> 

Mike (12:36):

Probably a little bit less stressful for him long term as well, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. I mean the, the, the, the driver behind this for you was having more time at home with, uh, your, I was gonna say your little one now. Seven year old. Yeah, 

Nikki (12:48):

Maybe seven. Yeah. 

Mike (12:49):

Uh, did Mark have any, uh, you know, for, as a couple, was there a, a, a plan that okay, you know, long term we don't want to be, mark doesn't want to be on site doing construction projects until he retires. 

Nikki (13:02):

Yeah, exactly. 

Mike (13:03):

Was that a conversation you had? 

Nikki (13:04):

No, most definitely. Yeah. A hundred percent. And, you know, he is not getting any younger, so we needed to come up with a plan. I've been able to sort of, well, we wanted a bit of fi we wanted a bit of time freedom mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, and a bit of financial freedom to be able to spend with Max and the other kids, um, and not be tied to being on a construction site, you know, seven, five days a week, you know. So it was an option to get us out as that. Um, don't get me wrong, we still love building. We still, you know, it's not like we're just dying to get out of it. It's, uh, it, it's, it's proven to be a, a great sort of business to have, um, and great contacts as well. We've made some great contacts within the industry, yeah's for sure. But ultimately, yeah, we do, Mark's probably pushing up towards <laugh>. You'll love me for saying this, Mike. And you already know, 

Mike (13:59):

We won't tell anyone. Don't worry. 

Nikki (14:01):

<laugh> mark's 60 and five years, so, um, and I'm not getting any younger, so we needed to come up with a plan and, um, yeah, property investing was the way to get there faster and for him to be able to retire at 60. 

Mike (14:18):

Okay. So you got five years to go until he's hopefully able to step away from it and Yeah. Have a portfolio to support that. Yeah. Um, okay. So then going, going back to, you discovered Instagram people like Jade at B Space. Yeah. Um, you had this, I guess this sort of looming 60 year target that you were working towards. How did that start to translate into action? What steps did you take? First of all, what did your first project look like? 

Nikki (14:47):

My fir well, our first project was, um, we sold, when I, when Mark and I got together, I already, obviously, I, I had Olivia from the previous relationships. I had a house. We lived in a house and, and we rented that out. So I decided, right, okay, so we need some, we need some capital here. So we sold that house. So we sold that house and also we had, um, an angel waiting in the wings, um, that could supply funds for, you know, whatever we were missing out on. So I found myself a coach and I learned all about Ettes, cuz I figured that would be the entry level property investment strategy, um, to just kind of get my head around it all really and figure out how it works. Uh, so I've probably spent the best part of four months doing a bit of coaching, showing Wright moves, doing Zoopla, trimming up and down motorway, being many a stinky house. 

(15:45)
Um, and landed on my first bike, Colette in South Yosha. Okay. Um, we prob we put the offer in and on a Friday night we trimmed at the motor. He was actually slinging it down, ran around the house in about two minutes. Cause we were a bit late cuz of the weather and the traffic. <laugh> <laugh>, the agent was like tapping his watch, like looking at me. Um, say he wanted to get back to York cause he had to go out on a night out <laugh>. So, um, we ran around the house, got a quick wreck on how much he thought we were gonna thought it was gonna cost to put it right. Came out, um, banged enough offer in first thing Monday morning. And I thought, there's no way the world we're gonna get that one. No way. Well, we only weld, we did <laugh>. So I thought first deal, we're gonna have to do something with it. Now, <laugh> um, 

Mike (16:37):

<laugh>, it's all easy up until that point. It's just the frozen right version. 

Nikki (16:40):

It was quite good deal. Um, so yeah. Why, 

Mike (16:43):

Why didn't you think you were gonna get, it was like it, was it a low offer or was the vendor kind? I not that motivated. 

Nikki (16:48):

No, it was a decent offer. I think it was on for 85. We offered 80 and they took it. Um, I just, I dunno, I just, maybe just not thinking it was with, as the agent was just like, ah, you know, it was just not really bothered about it. And I thought it's not, he's not gonna take it. He's not gonna take it, but he did. Um, and I mean, it must have been, the house has been a bit of a pickle. So they probably knew that that 80 grand was a decent offer anyway. 

Mike (17:12):

Okay. 

Nikki (17:13):

Um, so yeah, that was the start of our, our adventure, um, which didn't go to plan <laugh> 

Mike (17:23):

<laugh>, but the, the, this specific single that didn't go to plan 

Nikki (17:26):

No. The single, that didn't go well. It turned all right. I I, I was okay in the end and we ended up with a 34% ROI in it. But, um, yeah, it was eventful. Uh, and this is, I mean, it sounds absolutely stupid really because we are builders and we know how builders work and you would think that we'd be well versed in, in how they think and how it operates. But, um, we used, uh, a builder that market previously used as a subcontractor to his business. And so we thought, oh, we know, we know Andy. He's great. Well he is Andy, Andy's up for it. Bring him on. Well, six weeks into the Jobby Act. And we were like, geez. And I must admit, I to, I toted up the total amount of days he'd spent on the job and it was like six days <laugh>. I was like, we're six weeks into a renovation that was gonna take eight weeks mm-hmm. <affirmative> and you spent six days on the job. Um, what the hell do we do now? Um, but, you know, luckily, because this is where we did actually, um, pull from the resources from Mark's side of the business, um, we did, we could pull some joiners and some decorators over and we got the, we got the thing done. It was two weeks over schedule. But, you know, that's not outta the way in the scheme of things. Um, yeah, 

Mike (18:41):

That's pretty good. 

Nikki (18:41):

Yeah. And the renovation costs went up slightly because the electrics had been done in such a nightmare way. We had to redo them all. Um, but yeah, we pulled it across the line and, and I think, you know, well definitely because we've got the connections with the building side, we can do that. And it saved the day basically. Um, 

Mike (19:00):

It's, I mean obviously, you know, it's, it is great from your point of view. You, you had that, um, those, those connections to, to call Putin. But I, I'm sorry to say this from our side, it's also nice to hear that with 30 years experience, things can still go wrong on projects. You don't always get the right people on board. You can trust people and they don't do what you think they're gonna do. Uh, oh my god. You know, it, it, it, it does, it does happen. It's part and parcel I think of, of working. Yeah. In this industry, projects won't always go to plan. I think it's about that, that resilience, right? That ability to pivot, okay, well this has happened. Let's not throw all of our toys out the pram, let's come up with a new plan. Um, which is, this is what you 

Nikki (19:40):

Did. Yeah. You've just got, well, you've just gotta take the bull by the horn and, and just crack on. You're in a deal. You've gotta get yourself out of it. So, and you've gotta make the best of it. Um, so you've just gotta figure out what you need to do and get it done. Um, but yeah, builders let builders down as well. 

Mike (19:57):

Who'd, I think, um, who, how long ago was this, this first 

Nikki (20:01):

Time? So that was, we, that was February, 2021. 

Mike (20:06):

Okay. So we're, we're not talking a huge amount of time here then. No. We're coming up for two years that you'll have been sort of actively investing. Yes. 

Nikki (20:14):

Yes. At the end of our financial year, the end of the end of this month or our second financial year. 

Mike (20:19):

Okay. Um, so you got that first single up and running 34% return on investment. So I'm assuming after you did the work, you, you refinanced it, pulled some cash out. 

Nikki (20:27):

Yeah, so we refinanced that, pulled the cash out, um, which kind of made me think, ah, this thing works <laugh>. Um, so then we went, uh, as we'd completed on that particular project, we'd had an offer accepted on another bi left was probably about a mile down the road from this one. Okay. Only two miles. Um, and, uh, we, yeah, we, we'd had that offer offer accepted. We, um, were plowing along with a conveyance with that. Well, I had a survey done and because I'd used the survey quite cleverly on the first project to, to reduce the purchase price cuz it was in a better state. Um, I thought, ha, this works. So we had the survey done on the second one. Um, and to be honest, it, it was really, it wasn't in the half of butter State. Um, the survey came back and it was, it was good. 

(21:17)
You know, there were some bits that needed doing the house was old. It hadn't really been in touch for 20 odd years, but, you know, it wasn't in a state. And I thought, I know I'll see if I can be a bit cheeky and reduce the purchase price again. Well, <laugh> I did and I did it on a Friday and the lady sort of went, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, okay, well, we'll we'll accept that price. I think it was on a 85. I've got it for 80 and I tried to negotiate it down to 75. Well that was it over the weekend. She was quite savvy and she'd gone to all the previous, uh, previous viewers and said, if, if you wanna buy it for eight teacher yours. And so she sold it to somebody else over the weekend. 

Mike (22:00):

<laugh>, somebody playing you at your own game, Nikki. Oh, 

Nikki (22:02):

I know. I was like, no, <laugh>. So she, she texted me on the Monday game. I sold it to somebody else. I was like, so, oh, it totally backfired on me. Um, so yeah, don't be too greedy, Mickey in future. Um, so yeah, she'd sold it somebody else, but I was like, look, really, I, I apologize. Um, you know, maybe I've sort of misre your situation if it <inaudible> doesn't go through and everything falls apart, you know, it's not going fast enough for you, please do come back to us. Um, and she was kind of a little bit like, yeah, yeah. Um mm-hmm. <affirmative> dismissed me. Um, but I just kept in touch over the next probably month, two months, three months. I just kept dropping in every now and again cuz it was through purple breaks that I found it. So I had direct contact 

Mike (22:46):

With. He had her details. 

Nikki (22:46):

Yeah. Yeah. So I was communicating directly with a vendor, um, and I just thought, you know what, I'll just keep in touch just to see, you know, you know, typical salesperson. Um, so I just kept dropping on, uh, a message over and lo and behold, probably about two, three months into it, she was like, you, if you can go ahead at 80 grand, then I will come back to you. And I went, yep, done. Let's do it. Um, and just basically we, I think the, the other vendors that couldn't get the mortgage sorted out and what have you, so they weren't moving fast enough. They were a avail health. They just wanted to get out of the house. They got a, a council bungalow that they needed to move into pretty fast because I think you only get a limited amount of time to take the offer on the bungalow before they give it to somebody else. Okay. So she was under pressure to do that. Um, and yeah, so I was like, yep, we can do it. And then we completed on that in August 21st, 2021. Um, and yeah, started the renovation on that pretty much. We completed, uh, the refinance on the first one, put a little bit more cash in of our own and, um, bought the second one, renovated it, and we got an, well, it was a unicorn deal. We got all money out plus 800 all money out that one. 

Mike (24:00):

Yeah. Nice. 

Nikki (24:01):

Yeah. So then, um, 

Mike (24:04):

Well hang on before we, before we move on too quickly. So there's a couple of things there. It's funny because as I, I, you know, I I kind of, I I I don't cringe, right? I've been on both sides of this AC equation and as a, as a buyer, if I can secure a property for the lowest possible price, of course that is what I'm going to do. Of course, as a, a vendor, whenever we have sold anything, nothing boils my blood more than people trying to come back and renegotiate after we've agreed a price. And I'm just like, Victoria, we're not doing it. We're pulling out, screw them. I don't like them. And it's, it's funny, but just, you know, you, you, you are, you're, you're a salesperson by trade. Like that's, that's not an offensive thing, right? Like that's the, the industry I know <laugh> you. No, that's, that's that's what you have done, right? Yeah. So, yeah. Yeah. When it comes to negotiating deals, when it, I mean, you know, purple bricks, I guess you were thrilled with that, having direct access to the vendor rather than going through an agent maybe. Yeah, yeah, 

Nikki (25:03):

Yeah. What, 

Mike (25:04):

What, um, what, what have you taken from your life as, uh, you know, a, a, a sales manager and somebody in that sort of environment that has helped you in any way when it comes to negotiating purchases? 

Nikki (25:19):

Well, I mean, basically it has to be a win-win, um mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And I wasn't there much of a win-win on that one really was. I, um, I was being a bit too greedy. So yeah, I mean, it has to be a win-win and they have to feel like they're getting a deal and we are getting a deal. Um, and obviously you've got a bottom line, you go see your bottom line, you can't go any further. Um, and that was her bottom line. She needed 80,000 for it. Um, and, you know, stupidly <laugh>, uh, I tried to push it a little bit too far. Um, but yeah, it's all about relationships. And I think, you know, 14 years in the industry in sales, um, I think I got pretty good in building relationships with people. Um, and I, you know, sh I, hopefully that translate going, translates going forward into any other deal that we do is, um, it's people by people. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And if you're friendly and you're approachable and you're empathetic to people, um, in whatever situation you're in, then you know, that should come across and you should be able to sort of strike a deal with that person. Um, and hopefully it's a win. You know, it has to be a win-win for you both. Otherwise there's no point doing it, is there? 

Mike (26:33):

Well, no, exactly. I guess do you, do you do much to try and understand their motivations? You mentioned about that, uh, the bungalow that they were going for. So all of this stuff, I can, this helps you. My video's back. Woohoo. 

Nikki (26:47):

I can see, 

Mike (26:47):

Yeah, I'm still in the car. Yeah, I guess all of that, like, you know, all of that stuff helps you build a picture and, you know, maybe helps you frame your offer in a certain way, whether it's speed, whether it's money. Yeah. Like everybody, money, money is a big driving force with, with property sales generally, but there's usually something else, some other reason that they are selling that I guess you can try and tap into, 

Nikki (27:08):

Well this is it. And I, I thought on the first meeting, I'd thought she, she'd made it pretty clear that they needed, well I did a bit of digging as soon as we were there, you know, you get the relationship going and get a bit of warmth down. She actually thought Mark looked like a person she knew, which was even better. Um, <laugh>, she was like, oh. And I was like, is he nice? And she was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, he is nice. I was like, that's good news then <laugh>. Um, but I just, we just sat and had a talk and, and found out about her situation really. Um, and that's, like I say, they were, they were weren't very good health. I think he, the gentleman had asbestosis, they needed to be out. She had had bowel cancer. Um, and so probably, you know, I was probably a bit insensitive, um, which I shouldn't have been. Um, because yeah, lesson learned, <laugh>, don't do it again. Nicki <laugh>, 

Mike (27:55):

It still made sense at 80, I guess. And like you 

Nikki (27:58):

Say, you know, made sense at ap. 

Mike (27:59):

Okay. Okay. And yeah, I mean, that's it, it is trying to find that balance of, maybe I could get this a little bit cheaper, but for me, you know, if a deal's good enough, particularly in the past couple of years where the market has been booming, sometimes we have had to play a bit more on relationships and maybe paying a bit more than somebody else be willing to, to secure the deal versus, you know, in the market we're coming into, maybe there will be more flexibility to be a bit more aggressive. So yeah, it will change with the time as well. 

Nikki (28:26):

Yeah, a hundred percent. I mean, the deals that we have secured have so far been below asking price. We've managed to get them all below asking price. Um, even the HMO that we're doing at the moment, we got, I mean, I'll go onto that, but we got it, we got it down from the previous investors offer. Um, 

Mike (28:46):

And everybody's saying there's no deals out there. 

Nikki (28:48):

Oh yeah. And all and three of mine were found on right move. 

Mike (28:51):

Yeah. Most, most of ours are as well. 

Nikki (28:54):

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I remember you guys saying that and I was like, that's something in this. I'm not giving up on it yet. Um, yeah. So yeah, we, we manage just to secure them all below so far. Yep. 

Mike (29:06):

Yep. Um, so 

Nikki (29:08):

Not saying that I wouldn't going forward, 

Mike (29:10):

<laugh> well single. Lets, um, so you've got, you've got these two up and running. You've done pretty well on, um, most of your money back out. Certainly on the second one, you got all of your money back out. And that was what, about a year ago? So I guess you said you purchased it in August, a couple of months renovations probably took you into about the end of the year, maybe a year ago. Yeah. Started this 

Nikki (29:29):

Year. Just Ed, just, um, just before Christmas last year. 

Mike (29:33):

Okay. Yeah. And then what happened from there? 

Nikki (29:36):

So from there, um, I was struggling to, cause the, the rising market was, was really sort of kicking in. We, we, we'd started, um, buying property, uh, within South Yorkshire, uh, 20, early 2021, looking around, uh, 2020. Uh, and the prices had just gone whew through the roof. Um, and by till lets just didn't really work anymore. The two properties that we bought were in John. And um, just the prices had just gone skyrocketed. So I was thinking, oh God. So I thought, right, okay, let's look outside, outside of the area, let's go to a different area. Um, now I'm originally from West Yorkshire, uh, and I thought, right, okay, let's, let's check out the property prices around that particular, um, area. Um, so I went and started looking at it in different areas. Uh, and uh, we, cause I kind of, obviously I knew the area. 

(30:31)
I grew up there for 22 years. Um, and uh, we landed on a, a two bed terrace. Uh, and I thought, Hmm, these numbers work, obviously. So I, I literally had set all my uh, right mobile alerts up and I got the alert that this, uh, property come on the market. Um, it was on a Thursday night, I think really quite late on about four-ish, half four rang. The agent straight away was, can I see it? And they were like, yeah. So I dashed over, went to see the house, um, cause I'd obviously been looking again for ages as you do, saw the house, um, watched around, had a good rapport with the agent. He was a really nice guy. And I said to him, I think my offer on this is gonna be 80. Chris, what do you think? And he went, wow. You know, <laugh>, I don't know whether they'll accept it. And I was like, well, I think my is gonna be that. So anyway, it was, I left the property, ran my figures in the car. Yeah, 80 is fine. Went in with 80. They accepted it straight away that night. And I was like, winner <laugh>. 

(31:37)
So I got my little two bed terra. Um, yeah. And we went forward and started renovating that. I mean, she threw her fer off. A few surprises a bit, but she's been riddled with them. Um, so we got this gorgeous designer panel in the hallway, around the bottom floor and I thought, I thought it was a design <laugh>. Well, the things you learn, I thought it was a design thing for some granny slicer or him who'd have the house and thought that was amazing and they thought it was gorgeous. Well, the survey was done and it didn't notice any dam cause they couldn't get behind the bloody paneling, could they? Yeah, they, to test it. So as soon as we pulled the panel paneling off the wall, it was just right, the whole of the bottom floor. And I was like, oh God. Um, so yeah, we, she's pulled a few surprises on us. 

(32:24)
Then we've had a, this is another trade issue. We had, um, a roofer basically come to do some work that I'd asked him to do. He was the first person on the job. Cause you get your roof secure first and sealed and everything's bob on. Um, claimed to have done the work, invoiced me, I'd paid him in good faith on the nose cause be builders. I like to pay tradies pretty much straight away because I know how annoying it is for us when we don't get paid <laugh>. Um, so I paid him on the nose anyway, lo and behold, complete the whole renovation during the summer months. There was no real rain, rain started and leaks have been springing everywhere. So he is basically just robbed off us. Um, so we're in the process of trying to figure out how to get that back. But he is a bit non communic Caro at the moment, the poor guy. Anyway, we'll figure that one out. Ok. So, um, go on. What were you gonna ask me? 

Mike (33:23):

<laugh>? No, I, i I just, um, I I I guess what's on my mind is that, um, all, all three of these have been like 80, 80, 80 relatively relatively 

Nikki (33:34):

Kind. Repeat. 

Mike (33:35):

Yeah. You, you've found that model. I mean, cuz you mentioned at the start, you know, you found those with RMOs, you saw what Jade was doing at B Space. But yes, single let single, let single let pretty, you know, low purchase price, easy entry. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, and then, you know, I guess lo low hassle, you, you, you found something that, that you liked or I mean was, was there any, um, anything that was kind of making you think, well yeah, single letters are, are what we need to, to stick with? What was the wa was there a strategy? Was it just, let's keep doing this until it doesn't work anymore? 

Nikki (34:11):

I just think I was just recycling the cash and I just thought, uh, naively I just thought, well this is, you know, we've, this is the cash we've got, this is what we can afford by. Um, but with the, the third Bette was potentially gonna be a Bette. We just, um, obviously have the bigger expenditure with the, the dam issue now. Um, so we had to put a lot more into the renovation costs to sort that out. And I was, um, just talking to another investor pal and I just explaining the story and she was like, that, what, why don't you try it as service accommodation, Nicki? And I was like, Hmm, maybe more. Okay. No, but I mean obviously I knew about service accommodation, but I'm not really sat and thought that might be a thing. Um, so anyway, we, uh, we decided that's what we would do and we kitted it out and it's now operating as a, a service accommodation unit. 70% occupancy in its first two months. So like that 

Mike (35:15):

<laugh> and you, amazing. You said this is, this is Yorkshire kit, like where can we get a bit more specific than that? Sorry. 

Nikki (35:20):

Yeah, yeah. Well this is Castleford. It's in Castleford, which 

Mike (35:23):

Castleford? So just near lead spit, I mean 

Nikki (35:26):

20 minutes from lead. 

Mike (35:28):

Not like a, a tourist hotspot? 

Nikki (35:30):

No, no, no, no. Not a tourist hotspot. And this is why I would never have thought a service accommodation unit would work there. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, but it is really near one of the, you know, the, uh, it's called Xscape. It's like, uh, snow down, 

Mike (35:43):

Like a big snow down. 

Nikki (35:44):

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's near the snow down place. It's near a rugby league club. Um, it's 20 minutes from leaves. There's loads of, um, construction going off in the area, building loads of warehousing units in and around the, that particular area. So at the moment we're getting quite a few construction guys or guys that are working in the area that, um, are coming to stop, uh, with us. Um, so yeah, it's, it, it's working really, really well. Really well. I mean, touch wood, I'm twitching the wood, uh, <laugh>. So yeah. But it was kind of an accidental essay. Okay. But I really actually really, really enjoyed it. We have a management agent and 

Mike (36:24):

He's great. So you're not involved in the day-to-day like guest communications or anything 

Nikki (36:27):

Like that? No, I don't do all that. I, I really didn't wanna build myself into any more jobs. Yeah, understood. Yeah. And I know, know, there's obviously a, a saving to be how howwell 15% by not, um, paying a management agent. But I just, you know, I didn't really wanna get myself into having to deal with tenant issues or, or guest issues cuz it's a lot more involved than a ette would be. Yeah. Um, so we have a management agent and yeah. It's, it's doing really, really well. So I, and 

Mike (36:58):

Just from a financial point of view, you've got these three and I think we can kind of compare apples with apples almost, right? All similar purchase price, similar sort of all, all kind of Yorkshire generally it's a big place. Yeah. But, um, you've got two of them is single, that's one of them as sa with, uh, so you said 70% occupancy, you pay your managing agent 15% at the end of the day. Is the essay a little bit more profitable, considerably more profitable? Is it worth it for the extra work? I mean, I guess there's still gonna be some extra work on your part even there. Sure, yes. Yeah. So is it, is it a no-brainer or is it, yeah, it's better, but you know what, I wouldn't rush to build a portfolio of these. How, how do you feel about the profitability? 

Nikki (37:43):

Well, uh, compared to what it would've earned, it would've earned as a, as a, it probably would've cash loaded at about two 50 a month at house. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, and we're pulling in cash flow net 600. 

Mike (37:58):

Okay. So it's more than double 

Nikki (38:00):

Small than double. 

Mike (38:01):

Yeah. Yeah. And that's, that's hands off as well. That's with somebody looking after that for 

Nikki (38:05):

You. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So you couldn't, if you manage it yourself, you could do a little bit more. Mm-hmm. Um, and we're only early, it's only early stages, so I'm hoping by summer, um, obviously with the fluctuation in the, in the rates that you can have, um, then we may be able to pull a little bit. Well, I'm hoping we're gonna pull a lot more in, but yeah, it, it fueled my desire, but I really quite like sa I like the feedback you get. I like the, you know, the reviews, you know, it's 

Mike (38:32):

A bit more customer 

Nikki (38:32):

Focused. Yeah. I like that interaction. And I think that that comes from my background as well. Being in sales. I'm a people person. I, you know, I, you know, I quite like people <laugh>. Um, I like that interaction you get. I like to feel like, um, you know, I like to feel like we're serving people as well and we're giving them a nice place to stay and, you know. Yeah. I just really enjoy that side of it. And even though we have a management agent, I still do. I just like that. But I like that side of it almost done it. Okay. 

Mike (39:00):

So, 

Nikki (39:02):

So 

Mike (39:02):

Stick with me. You've got your two single lets Yeah. That you had a model that was working, you then buy your third one and you think, okay, we're gonna try this as as essay and that works out well and you like that 

Nikki (39:14):

Mm-hmm. 

Mike (39:15):

<affirmative>. And then for your fourth deal, I'm assuming you're either gonna rinse and repeat a single, let Nicki, or you're going to rinse and repeat the service accommodation model, but 

Nikki (39:23):

Oh, don't be silly. 

Mike (39:25):

No, that would be too easy. 

Nikki (39:26):

<laugh>. Yeah. So, um, I had done your course September, 2021. 

Mike (39:35):

Yeah, just over a year 

Nikki (39:37):

Ago. Yeah, just over a year ago. Um, we did the sourcing course, um, and we are, you know, if you're in the HMO business, you kind of know that you don't find the HMO overnight. Um, it takes a lot of research and invest, you know, time investment to find, you know, the, the properties that are gonna work. 

Mike (39:56):

Yeah. 

Nikki (39:57):

So I had in the background been doing this obviously for a while. Um, we've been to view a few, the numbers just didn't work. Um, and then an opportunity presented itself within the network that I'm in. Um, another investor power had well not been able to complete on this particular property in Barnsley, and he put it on the network to say, would anybody be interested in this deal? Uh, and I was like, ah, hmm, it's in my area, let's have a go. So looked at it, um, and we went to view it probably October, 2021. Um, so no, when a little a bit later because we've been doing the course with you, so maybe it maybe have been the beginning of this year. We sort of started, we looked at it, um, and it was like, I think they'd agreed it was a director end sale through an agent with this other guy that we knew. Uh, I think they'd offered a hundred grand on it. Uh, we went and looked at it and it was in a royal state. Um, so it's in Barnsley Town Center and it had been housing Asylum Seekers and Mayor's Group had been running it and managing it for 10, 10, 12 years. 

Mike (41:12):

Okay. 

Nikki (41:13):

Uh, four bed hmo. Um, and, uh, it just needed a, it was interstate. Absolutely. I mean, awful. So I ran my numbers on it and I thought, well, it'll work better at 85 for us. Um, so <laugh>, there's a theme here, Mike <laugh>, 

Mike (41:33):

It's a good number, obviously works for you. 

Nikki (41:35):

I like the number. Um, so I, uh, I, I went back and I said, look, you know, this is what we can move on. My, the previous investor was basically just about to complete and couldn't do it anymore. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, they, he split with his business partner and they, they didn't want the deal anymore. So it got so far down the line that probably that went in my favor as well. So I came in and I was just like, okay. I ran the numbers and it worked at H five for us, so I left that on the table. Um, they came back a couple of days later and said, yeah, we'll go with it. So that was it. Got my first H five <laugh>. Fantastic. Yeah. So I was, um, we've done, um, an amazing design scheme on it as well. We've used roost Charlotte from roost. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, do you know Charlotte? Um, so 

Mike (42:23):

We've, I, I, I don't, I kind of, I did a bit of a, I Google when you mentioned her, uh, we're, we're connected on Instagram. Um, but yeah, I mean, from what I can see, it looks like she does some, some really nice interiors. 

Nikki (42:35):

Yeah. Really, really cool. And so 

Mike (42:38):

She's a, an interior designer for property developers, I think, right? 

Nikki (42:42):

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Um, so she, she's done a really cool design scheme on it. We're going, because we're from Sheffield and we're builders. We've done an industrial theme <laugh>. Um, and yeah, it, it, it's working out really, really well. Um, I'm hoping to go, well, we're converting it from four beds into five beds because the numbers work better. Um, we had the HMO officer involved from the get-go and she agreed that, that that would be fine. Um, it's in an Article four area, but because it's been operating as an not licensed, cause it was falled, but because it's been, um, operating as a HMO for over 10 years, um, there wasn't an issue with the licensing or we didn't need planning information planning. Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, it all just kind of slotted into place really, really well. Um, so yeah, we're going forward with that. And, um, just made renovation. Well, we're halfway through a renovation. Um, again, have traumas with a builder at first with that one. <laugh> really insane. 

Mike (43:49):

I feel like, I feel like you really should bring Mark in to be your, your, your builder. 

Nikki (43:52):

I keep saying this. I'm like, when are you gonna, when is it gonna get to the point? 

Mike (43:55):

Please retire so I can 

Nikki (43:56):

Have you <laugh> for god's sake. Honestly. But, um, we've got a really good bill team on there now and, um Okay. They're, they're, I mean, it's behind, behind schedule. It was supposed to be finished last Monday. Um, and it's not gonna be finished probably beside of Christmas, I don't think, but Okay. Um, hopefully in the new year, which is, I don't, I'm thinking, are people really wanna go and I'm gonna move into HMO just before Christmas. Is it that big a deal? 

Mike (44:24):

Uh, I mean it might do, but January you'll find it will be that, that that's when spare room will be booming and you will Yeah. You will have it filled quickly. I mean yeah, we un unless if if something for us isn't gonna be finished by sort of early November, the difference between mid-November and the start of January, you know, it's maybe one or two rooms, but realistically things are gonna fly come January. Yeah. So it, it shouldn't have a too big an impact. 

Nikki (44:48):

Well, that's what I kind of thought. So yeah, we're aiming for, I'm aiming to sort of get it on the market and live by whenever we all come back in January. 

Mike (44:57):

Okay. Yeah. And I mean, how much work has been involved in that? You said it was a bit run down, but was it just like a, a cosmetic spruce up or it sounds like you've done a bit more than that. 

Nikki (45:04):

Yeah, no, it, it had basically a full rei it ha we haven't gone back to brick. Um, it hasn't massively needed that. Um, but it had a full rewire we've, we've added to the, the plumbing system or we've put five on suites in, so they're all on suite. Um, we, we've done a good renovation on it, a really good renovation. Um, but it hasn't been completely back to brick. Um, okay. So, yeah. 

Mike (45:31):

And where do you, I mean we're, we're talking here about projections and, and things in the future that may or may not come to pass, but where are you expecting it to be from a, an end value point of view? A rental income point of view? 

Nikki (45:44):

Um, a rental income. I'm hoping we're gonna push two and a half more a month, maybe a little bit more. Um, 

Mike (45:50):

So about 500 per room? Roughly. 

Nikki (45:53):

Yeah. About, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, um, I'm hoping we're gonna go for a commercial valve on it. Uh, okay. Then the north commercial valves work better. Um, and uh, I'm hoping we're gonna be anywhere between sort of 180, 190 n value, 

Mike (46:10):

Decent uplift. You'll need to come back and let us know how that goes. 

Nikki (46:14):

Yeah. Fingers crossed. <laugh>. Yeah. And although at the moment because of the situation with the mortgage market and everything going on with the rates and nobody really knowing what they're doing and all been a bit of a disaster, we have or are in the process of just negotiating with our angels again to keep them in a little bit longer term. Okay. Uh, on the rate that they're on. Um, and they seem happy with that. So we might not refinance that, um, probably until the back end of next year. 

Mike (46:44):

Yeah. We had a, and this, this is not advice at Togo and speak to your own broker, but I had a similar conversation yesterday on a property we've got that's just come into the end of a five year fix and is gonna switch onto a variable rate. And thankfully five years ago, the variable rate, um, isn't too bad certainly compared to the rates that are on the table just now, they're starting to come down again already versus a month ago. And that the broker actually made the comment that some people who were thinking interest rates were gonna go up and up and up tied into deals that actually a month down the line there are better rates available already. That's 

Nikki (47:20):

What I 

Mike (47:21):

Didn't wanna do. So, you know, sometimes it pays to kinda sit and just let the dust settle, but this, this variable rate, we're thinking that we're actually probably, probably gonna, rather than refinance now, we'll sit on that for six to 12 months. Yeah. Yes. And then probably get a better fixed rate down the line. Yeah. That will more than offset the, the extra that we pay over those, those six months, um, a decent five year fix. So yeah, 

Nikki (47:43):

I mean, it is appealing. 

Mike (47:44):

I think you're probably doing the right thing there. 

Nikki (47:46):

Yeah. I mean, well we are heading into a recession, so, and now what happens in the recession rate drop rates drop, don't they? So would you really want to be securing yourself in a fixed rate for five years at a silly rate when you absolutely kick yourself, wouldn't you, <laugh> 

Mike (48:05):

Yeah, yeah. You would 

Nikki (48:06):

Absolutely kick yourself. 

Mike (48:08):

Do long term fixes generally, but yeah. Yeah. It's, um, it's, um, yeah. Okay. So I mean, you've done a lot in two years. That's, I know we've spoken, we've spoken about four projects, two single, that's one essay, one o um, you know, quite, quite broad, I guess quite, quite diverse as well. Um, you find that's worked well for you. Any, you know, would you have done it differently or you, you happy having that diversity? 

Nikki (48:35):

No, I'm happy having that diversity, although now, um, I'm gonna be more focused on the high cash flowing strategies, so, okay. I think, um, the economy that we're in at the moment, I think HMOs are just gonna keep flying. Um, you know, the cost of living crisis is, is real. People are nervous. Um, they're, a lot of tenants are quite happy for you to be paying all the bills and they're quite happy for, um, you know, to rent a room with everything included. And with the, obviously HMOs have been like really flying, so I think we're gonna go and try and find some more of those. And I do really enjoy the service accommodation side of it. Yeah. I'm yet to experience HMO management. I mean, I'm, I'm not gonna manage myself, but I'm yet to experience what it's like, um, running hmo, so I might well find. I love that. Um, so if I do, then, you know, the intention is to buy more anyway, so hopefully that'll, hopefully it'll tie in with me liking it <laugh>. Um, but I do, I have found that I do really enjoy service accommodations, so I am, um, actively looking for the higher cash flowing properties now, um, with a view in mind that, you know, well, I said previously, mark 16, five years mm-hmm. <affirmative>, we need to be cash flowing a lot higher than a elect can give us. 

Mike (49:56):

So Sure. 

Nikki (49:57):

That's where we're 

Mike (49:58):

At. But you see what you've done in two years and think, okay, well I've got another five years. Yeah. Um, you, you'll be able to, you know, generally speaking, once you get started, the momentum starts to build mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and you'll probably do even more in the next two years than you did in the first two. You'll do more than two years after that. So it will start to compound and yeah, I mean, five years to get yourself into a position where you can comfortably retire. Like that's not a, a huge amount of time, I don't think. Think 

Nikki (50:27):

No, hopefully not. And, you know, hopefully it carries on going the way it's going. Yeah. Um, yeah, like I say, just getting started. 

Mike (50:34):

What, um, what would you say, I mean, you've mentioned builders a couple of times. What, what's been the biggest struggle that you've had over the last two years 

Nikki (50:43):

With builders? 

Mike (50:44):

Well, gen I, I don't want if, if it's not, if there's something other than builders, I'd be interested to hear that as well. Um, it sounds as though you, you, you have, you've had a few frustrations with them, <laugh>, but, you know, just broadly speaking about your, you're investing generally, has there been any one thing that's really sort of driven you crazy or caused you issues? 

Nikki (51:03):

Um, I mean, I, I must admit, I put a post on Instagram a few weeks ago where I had a mindset has been a little bit of a thing with me, I think, um, knowing that I can do it and, you know, and, and being able to sort of realize that Nicki, you do actually know what you're talking about. Um, you've got a breadth of experience and yeah, you can do this, um, not to feel like an imposter because we see, we see all the, you know, the, the fantastic people on Instagram and it's amazing what guys, people are doing. But you do sometimes feel a little bit like, I need to be doing that. I need to be doing this. I need to be doing the other. But when you sit back and take stock where you've just said it yourself, you've done quite a lot in two years. Nikki, I don't, like, sometimes I don't feel like I have <laugh>. Um, so I think, you know, I've struggled a little bit with mindset probably the last few months, whereas, you know, I feel like I've, um, well I actually went on a business retreat a couple of weeks ago and it made me realize you're not actually doing too bad kids. 

Mike (52:08):

I think you're doing fantastically, but no, I I that that, um, you know, that, that 

Nikki (52:14):

Build imposter syndrome. 

Mike (52:16):

Yeah. It's, and in comparing ourselves to others as well, you know, you, you, you're doing what you're doing for, for your own reasons. And as long as what you are doing is gonna get you where you need to be, then you know, who cares what anyone else is doing. I think, you know, we started off this conversation with, with Instagram, and it is a phenomenal place to, to meet people and, you know, some of the connections that you, you've built through that I'm sure have given you a, a huge amount of value. But whether it is Instagram or Facebook or in some of these networking groups or reading y p n magazine or listening to podcasts, like, you know, there's, there's a lot of BS out there as well. Yeah. Um, and you know, I think you just need to stay focused on why am I doing this? What's important to me and my family is what I'm doing the right thing to get me there. And if that's the case, then, then crack on and, and let everyone else do their own thing. 

Nikki (53:04):

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think that's what I've come to the conclusion. I'll be know, just stay in your lane, Nick, you know, stay in your lane. Absolutely. Keep doing what you're doing. Keep focused on what you are trying to achieve and, uh, it all come good. 

Mike (53:16):

Yeah. Good advice for, for somebody starting out, I think just to, to not get distracted by, by everybody else. Yeah. Um, and I guess, you know, it's, uh, something that, you know, you said you've, you've just sort of worked through recently, so we'll hopefully help you over the next couple of years as well, just to stay in your lane and, and get where you need to get to. Yeah, 

Nikki (53:36):

Yeah. A hundred percent. A hundred percent. Well, I'm hoping it will <laugh> 

Mike (53:40):

<laugh>. Um, so I mean, I guess it wouldn't be, it wouldn't be a, a podcast with you without a shout out to, uh, Instagram. Is that the best place to, to find you if people wanna see what you get up to over the next five years in Mark's journey to Freedom? 

Nikki (53:54):

Yeah. <laugh>, yeah. Freedom. Yeah. No, absolutely. Uh, um, Instagram is my, is my, this platform I prefer. 

Mike (54:01):

Okay. And how can we find you there? 

Nikki (54:03):

It's at Mr. And Mrs. Smith development. 

Mike (54:06):

Nice and easy. Perfect. Yeah. Okay. Well, that was all I wanted to cover today. Nikki just, uh, leads me to say thank you so much for, for your time, for joining us, for sharing your story. And I think, you know, from, hopefully I think everyone listening to this will agree, the detail that you've gone into has been really insightful just to see, uh, you know exactly what is taken to get where you are over those two years, what's worked and, and, and what's been, uh, uh, maybe a bit more of a, a struggle. So thank you for being so open. Thanks for joining me and, uh, no worries. I'm, I'm super pleased to see where you've got to so far. 

Nikki (54:36):

No, thank you. No, thank you seriously, <laugh> for giving me the education and the insight, <laugh>. 

Mike (54:42):

Well, it's, uh, it's all, it's all part of the day job, isn't it? But no, it's been, it's been, it's been great getting to know you and, uh, I'm excited to see where you end up, um, you know, come five years. We'll, uh, we'll, hopefully I'll be getting an invite to Mark's big 60th retirement party. 

Nikki (54:56):

Oh my God, that'd be amazing. Let's do it 

Mike (54:59):

All. Nicki, thank you so much, and we'll catch up soon. All 

Nikki (55:02):

Right, see you soon.