The Inside Property Investing Podcast | Inspiration and advice from a decade investing in UK real estate
The Inside Property Investing Podcast | Inspiration and advice from a decade investing in UK real estate
Turning £20k into 12,000 Sq Ft Developments (Joe Robertson's Story)
Joe bought his first property at 21 - a brand-new, city-centre apartment for £110,000. It's not the type of project most of us would get excited about, but he obviously saw something in it, as a few years later he sold it and had turned his £20,000 deposit into a £90k profit.
That was in 2011, and after years of honing his craft he’s just bought a 12,000 square foot commercial building at auction, with no prior experience in commercial, and no clear plan for what he’d do with it. Just another hunch that it was a good deal, and the confidence to back himself.
In this episode, we dive into the lessons Joe’s learned from taking these leaps, and how he rebuilding his portfolio to be more profitable, more manageable, and more aligned with the life he actually wants to create.
If you’re an investor thinking of scaling up (or changing direction) Joe’s story will definitely give you some ideas.
And it's worth mentioning that Joe's also a member of the IPI Mastermind - our private support and accountability group for ambitious investors building serious property businesses. If you want to be in the room with investors like him helping you scale your own business, you can apply to join us now at https://insidepropertyinvesting.com/mastermind
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Joe bought his first property at 21 years old, a brand new city center apartment for only 110,000 pounds. Now it's not the type of project most of us would get excited about, but he obviously saw something in it as just a few years later, he sold it and it turned his 20,000 pound deposit into a 90,000 pounds profit. That was in 2011. And after years of honing his craft, he's just bought a 12,000 square foot commercial building at auction with no prior experience in commercial property and no clear plan on what he was going to do with it. Just another hunch that it was a good deal and the confidence to back himself. In this episode, we dive into the lessons that Joe's learned from taking these leaps and how he's rebuilding his portfolio to be more profitable, more manageable, and more aligned with the life he actually wants to create. If you're an investor thinking of scaling up or changing direction, Joe's story is definitely going to give you some ideas. And it's worth mentioning that Joe's also a member of the IPI Mastermind, our private support and accountability group for ambitious investors building serious property businesses. So if you want to be in the room with investors like him, helping you scale your own business, you can apply to join us now at the link in the notes for this episode or at insidepropertyinvesting.com forward slash mastermind. First of all, Joe, massive welcome to the show. I'm thrilled to have you here. You know, property has been a big part of your life for, well, a long time, right? How long have you been investing for now? Since I was... 21. I'm 35 now.
SPEAKER_01:So yeah, it was about 2011.
SPEAKER_00:And it started off rather interestingly. And I know you're kind of moving on from this now, but I think what you've done to get to this stage is hugely interesting. So I want to spend a little bit of time just digging into that initial strategy, if you want to call it that, that got you started. Your focus really has been up until fairly recently on significantly below market value apartments, leaseholds, um, apartments, right? Mainly Manchester city center, exclusively Manchester city center, or.
SPEAKER_01:I've done a fair bit in Liverpool as well. Um, and I'm tempted now to sort of branch out to Birmingham as well. Um, but I haven't yet done that. And yeah, it puts me off a little bit thinking side visits extra and this, that, and even the process, but yeah, it's an option.
SPEAKER_00:Okay. And I mean, talk to me about how you got started. You're 21. Are you actively looking to invest in property or are you just kind of looking around with open eyes thinking, what can I do to make some money?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. It was a combination of luck and also help. So finishing university, my dad said, listen, I want to help you get on the property ladder. We've got£20,000 for you. What do you want to do with it? and where do you want to be, basically. So,£20,000 deposit. Let's get looking. Like I said, it was 2011. I like the sound of Manchester. I'm in the city at the moment at university. Your priorities are a bit more, well, I definitely want a corporate job, was my idea at the time. As soon as possible, I studied building surveillance at uni. I wanted a job in property. I thought city centre location was the biggest reality for that. And my dad was in property as well, although he didn't own a leasehold at that time. So he helped get the ball rolling and start looking at this, that and the other. And he was the one really that learned that there seems to be this oversupply or a rumoured oversupply of apartments in Manchester. No one was buying them because it was sort of 2010, 2011. So there was no demand. There was a lot of builds stuck in construction or just completing
SPEAKER_00:and developers wanted out. Post-recession, but the market hadn't really picked up again at this stage.
SPEAKER_01:It was flatter than flat. I imagine it would be realistic as an active investor to It'd be tougher than it is now other than beautiful interest rates, I guess. But yeah, so it was just like, would I say the perfect storm, the perfect combination of scenarios and I was getting a helping hand. So that unfolded and we began our search and basically opportunities landed on our doorstep of properties that were marketed a year or two before significantly above the prices that we were able to stack them up for today. We found a guy who was basically structuring, you know, set up a company that structured these that would negotiate to buy 20 or 30 at a time. And then he pulled together the investors to make that happen. So, yeah, the first one I purchased at a two-bed apartment in a development called Potato Wharf in Castlefield in Manchester. So it was purchased for$110,000 for two-bedroom parking. And I managed to sell within a couple of years for 200K. And in the meantime, I'd refinanced that as well and used the same guy who'd set up this company structure to pull investors together to buy more. And I purchased a second one. So my route to first and second was actually really... So I
SPEAKER_00:get why they were discounted at that time. Obviously, like you say, the market was flat. We were still coming out the back of a fairly aggressive recession. But what was it that gave you confidence to think, this is still a good investment. I mean, the reason the market was flat was because people had lost faith in virtually everything. But did you see potential that other people didn't?
SPEAKER_01:The thing that I remember that really stuck out to me was there was people everywhere. I think even a surveyor said, like, there's well too many flats in Manchester now. No one's going to live here. And I can't remember the stats for how many people were living in Manchester at the time, but it was tiny. And I remember just thinking, look at London. This isn't... People aren't going to be exiting Manchester. It's just going bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger. And I felt that it was going to be a monumentally fast pace. And that wasn't science. That was just... Me, finger in the air, 21-year-old, ballsy guy who probably was overexcited, couldn't really see the risk because I really wanted my own property and for it to be a 60-centre apartment as well. Being honest, that's probably what it was. But yeah, like I say, maybe it was a better look or maybe it was a really, really well-educated decision from me.
SPEAKER_00:Well, we'll let the listeners make up their mind on that. By the time you were selling... This first one, a couple of years later, you already owned your second one. How did things start to snowball from there?
SPEAKER_01:I'd say I wasted many, many years. Listen, I managed to buy some properties in that time as well, but mostly many, many years without a clear direction, hoping that stuff would land on my desk or just scouring right move. And what was actually happening was for those strategies, the market at this point was then become really buoyant again. So just offering a discount from the Rightmove listing or something along those lines, I was just constantly outbid. But what I was doing is as I was getting out there and I was doing viewings and potentially creating some experience as well, I was working full-time in architects at the time in Manchester as well. So I was being kept busy that way. and stripping and saving what I could, and aggressively refinancing what I already had as well. So actually, I think, if I remember correctly, I think my third purchase, I think I might be missing one or two out here, but I soon went into buying a five-bed house in Chorlton in South Manchester, which I lived in myself and rented four other rooms out. And I managed to get that really, really cheap because when I offered to purchase it, it got down value by like 40 grand or something along those lines. So I just sent that back and it was the only offer. So I managed to get a big discount on the purchase of that one. And I realized how much money I was making through this house share type model. And I was living with all my friends in a beautiful part of Manchester, going out drinking and eating fancy meals all the time. It was absolutely amazing. So I bought another house on the same estate, a stone's throw away, put it on spare room, you know, made it a H&O, self-managing because I was three or four doors away. And then all of a sudden they became a friend of tenants, a bit too much of They were asking for lifts everywhere and ringing me saying, oh, I decided to do the ironing on the carpet instead of the ironing board you provided me. But that's all right, isn't it? We're mates. Because we're mates, yeah, okay. Or they just constantly locked themselves out of the rooms and were like, will you come over with the master key? And it was never charged for and this, that, and the other. But it was my first experience of self-managing anything and also... HMO. And I was just loving life as well. It was just great. At that age, I was on a really low salary. But overnight, that set up changed my life. It was crazy. I've got more money then than I do
SPEAKER_00:now. Well, that's off in the way. Prior to that, a kind of accidental step into HMOs. I assumed you were renting out these flats in Manchester whilst you owned them. But was the main income that you saw from them in flipping them, sitting on them for a few years and then trading them on a higher price? Or did you see the rental income from a single point of view as lucrative as well?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, the single income back then was lucrative, or lucrative enough, should I say. Especially with leasehold properties, a big challenge now is the service charge costs. And also, obviously, everyone's challenge, which is the interest rates as well. Back then, interest rates were completely minimal. The clientele you were attracting, you know, with the first property, you know, probably shouldn't be admitting this, but I actually just stayed at home with my mum and rented it out. And I was enjoying the income from that for a few months. I can't remember how long, but a little while anyway. Of course, I followed the correct procedures, got consent to let, et cetera, et cetera. But yeah, the income I found powerful. There was little to no maintenance costs. because they were all brand new. The standard tenant was excellent. I think the first tenant you ever had with two solicitors, a couple of young solicitors, the flat came back completely pristine after being in there a couple of years. Next tenant, every tenant I had for a long time in all the properties were just excellent. And it looked pristine for a long time to come. Demand for rental was huge. Anyone did move out. It was... on the next day. And that pretty much still is true to this day in Manchester. So I love the rental income. And what I was doing instead of trading them on or instead of selling them at that point, I was just refinancing it. And I was not having any difficulty at all with my valuations. I was probably just trying to be a little bit punchy, but sensible. A beautiful thing about... leasehold properties or flats in big blocks, which I love and will probably get onto later, is like, it's so easy to determine the value of it. It's a little bit more difficult with houses, people chop and change, and these are all relatively new-built. You know, a two-bed's largely a two-bed, give or take a couple of square foot. They're all the exact same paint, exact same floor, exact same kitchens. Like, to go and value them as a desktop exercise can take a few minutes, and you can be 90% of that.
SPEAKER_00:Sure. Do you feel like your degree in building surveying helped at all with this? Did that play into your ability to... I think understanding GDVs and there's science behind it, but I suppose there's also a little bit of... interpretation and uncertainty from novice investors. I guess with your degree and your background, you kind of saw behind the curtain a little bit as to how things worked.
SPEAKER_01:I'd love to say that's the case, Mike, but I wasn't mature enough at uni, and it was a lot of drinking and skiving and doing enough to get a degree, basically, and come back with the experience. I've actually, like I say, then I worked into an architect and doing a bit of project management. Then I spent... many, many years in social housing, doing project management there to some degree. And I don't feel like... Even my degree definitely didn't help either, but I can't really see how that has given me the skills I have now in property investment. Also, project managing a larger scale project or the ones I was doing is just totally different to one where you're doing absolutely everything. So it's more like a... corporate oversight of everything and relying on other people for information whereas I think you need to be a lot more sort of hands on and follow a nice process yourself in this world so genuinely my skill is listen my dad's a property investor so I grew up with it there is a bit of that but it It excites me so much to this day. I've loved it. I put the time and effort in. And again, these many years, sometimes I feel sick that I didn't go down the education route sooner in terms of the courses being with you and the mastermind and stuff like that. I feel like I wasted many, many years where I could have been a lot more active. But at the same time, it sort of allowed me to develop my own niche and do endless hours of research. And even if it didn't get me the results, e.g. property purchase of it, I still learned to cost it up, to price it, to go through the process of refinances and all that. So I think it's literally just hands-on experience. And that was at a time I was able to scale still. At a time where I can't remember my salary for the life of me, but I'm sure it was less than 20 grand a year. And it might be around the 20s after a couple of years or something like that. So that was like my survival money. I didn't need more than that. All my mates were on a similar sort of income. And then everything I was getting from
SPEAKER_00:property was the bonus. Got you. Okay. So you've got these two HMOs in Charlton. It sounds as though you're dabbling, and I don't mean that in an offensive way, but you're looking for opportunities. You're seeing what works. You're trying a little bit of this, a little bit of that. At what point did you start to see property as... maybe more than the kind of site income.
SPEAKER_01:There was definitely that dabble out of members. every day feeling frustrated, thinking, how long is it taking? You know, this is really, really frustrating. And you still upset me, like, quite a lot, really. And then when one came, like I say, I love it. I'm just excited about it all and everything. And then deep down, you know, it's going to be another two years until you buy another one. But, you know, you're still going and stuff like that. In terms of intent, when I saw it as a full-time thing, Again, for me, I'm a bit of a freak, but from the age of five or six, I knew what I wanted to do. There was no question about it. And I was going to study something property-related to get a broader background of it. And that was me. That was it, no matter what. But in terms of when did things really change, I'd say the first... When I say HMO, the first one was actually a house share, but it soon got turned into a HMO when I moved out. And the other HMO went... Again, I like the single language. I'm awful. That was what you could make from property, basically. And as soon as I did this H&O model, I was, like I say, I'm Richard. I'm now like... It was just nuts. And yeah, it was just fantastic. It was a crazy, crazy time.
SPEAKER_00:Okay. You mentioned there as well that you got onto... not just buying individual apartments, but actually exploring blocks of flats. What did that, how did you get into that? Was that when you were starting to think about, well, you know, if we could source lots of these and what was the first opportunity where it wasn't just one unit at a time?
SPEAKER_01:Because of the, because of the way I bought my first property. Um, and I saw how well for this guy was that this introduces to us. Um, I always had that as the back of my brain, like, I could buy more properties. I could buy a huge amount. And I wasn't scared of being laughed at or I wasn't scared of sort of being found out as, when I say a bullshitter, I don't mean in a nasty way, but I mean, if I was ringing a developer who was trying to sell 200 apartments and then they find out I wasn't capable of buying 10 at a time, you know, and I'd even lead the conversation like, you know, I'm doing it for... these wealthy guys or my dad's friends or I've got contacts who my family are really wealthy or I'd say anything just to get my foot in the door. So a part of all the wasted years as well really was actually being on the phone and structuring these deals. And so many of them nearly came off and then so many of them failed. But the first time I was involved with buying... you know, a decent chunk at a time was COVID really. My first lot was like a pension. It was a REIT actually.
SPEAKER_00:When you say REIT, just for clarity, you're talking here about a real estate investment trust, right? And for people that maybe haven't come across that before, what does that mean? Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I think it's a way for, you know, they market themselves as a way to get into property without having to get into property.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:We're all professional corporate titles. Come and chuck your money in with us, and we will be in charge of buying these properties, managing these properties, giving you a return on these properties, and we will asset manage them by themselves without you having any sort of control or interest in it, and we'll just give you the profits. I don't know how successful they are. I don't know how profitable they are. What I do know is I've had a lot of opportunities to buy from these types of people, not be very good at selling the prices that they should be anyway. So I don't know how successful they are.
SPEAKER_00:Okay. So this opportunity comes along from a real estate investment trust. It was
SPEAKER_01:seven apartments in Manchester city center, um, And it was through an agent, actually, who just rang me saying, look, I know this is the type of stuff you'll buy. Here's the sort of discounts. They've tried to shock them in auction at 20% below the market value. They've had no bites. They need to wrap things up ahead of Christmas, really. Can you do something about it? So I just did a bit of research and said, I need them at about 30% to 35% below. And the initial... initial conversation was, you know, you're a joke, get lost. And then we say, okay, you know, be really polite. And then I go, well, actually, maybe you can have, or we've actually got a few more. So you'd have to take them as well. So I think it started with four, then it went to five and then went to seven. What did it go to? Yeah. Anyway, I think it was seven in the end. And then, so yeah, well, yeah, I can take them all. And then I was frantically just with a mortgage advisor, like, If I take another one on, is this possible? Is this possible? And he was just like, just before Christmas, he was working like mad. He's into specialist lending. So he was finding funding for me at 90% of purchase price. So I remember having to put 10% of my own money. And I was looking to get a day one exit on the bridge or use the same valuation as long as it was the market value we thought it was. Exit the bridging loan as soon as possible within one to three months, let's say. And then I just have them in my portfolio on a buy-to-let basis. So that was it. And that was the conveyor belt of... As long as the proven below-market value discount is there, you'll still have to pay for the surveyor to go around and pay the upfront fees. You'll get it on a bridge at 90% of the purchase price. You have to find 10%. to find your stamp duty. But with a purchase that size, it's a discounted stamp duty as well. Roughly,
SPEAKER_00:what was one of these
SPEAKER_01:flats worth? So there was two beds and one bed. I was picking up the one beds between like 100 and 110. And they were worth, day one, 150. But they had something with the lease where they needed a dealer variation, which could have been done for about a grand of property maximum. And then that would have been about$175,000. And the two beds add$25,000 to the purchase. That's$25,000 to the end value there on the driver's side as well. So they were really good. And, you know... It's exciting. The second one, which actually fell through, which is horrendous, cost me quite a bit of money, but I had an old mill in Stockport that was just developed. If you know Stockport, and obviously you do, Mike, it's right in between the Tesco and the Porsche garage. Big, beautiful mill there. I agreed to buy nine apartments from them at 30% below market value. or below the market value of the RICS survey. So the RICS survey came along and the only comparables of properties there were the other properties in the block that had all been bought off plant two years before. So I thought I was getting about 50% below market value. But in a bid to sort of raise private finance and being a bit younger and naive, I shared a little bit too much information publicly on social media. And I believe someone just swooped in and took them off me because that one didn't complete. So it's only now that I can laugh about it.
SPEAKER_00:You said that cost you a lot, though. So, I mean, what sort of costs were you putting into this before completion? What's the downside or the risk exposure?
SPEAKER_01:So there was... I managed to negotiate like a 3% deposit rather I think they originally wanted like 20% or something like that and I was just like no chance and then they were saying 10% and we said look I'm your only option to buy these I'm a serious buyer but I don't want someone else controlling my money. Cause again, with these new developers, what if they pulled out and this, you know, so there was a percentage for, I can't remember what it was. There was a valuation fee. There was two valuation fees for some reason, uh, and legal fees. Um, and then the application fees for the loans and stuff like that. And I think that one, I think it was like 20 grand that one cost. Um,
SPEAKER_02:it
SPEAKER_01:was, it was, But it was the opportunity cost, which was... That bit was actually not that tough to swallow. It was the fact that I had a risk valuation on paper that was like the upside of 500K. And actually, I thought it was significantly better than that because I thought the valuation comparables were a disaster. So it's more that I can actually feel that in my stomach now thinking about it.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:But I put the Rick's valuation on my LinkedIn saying, this is what I do. And I hadn't even exchanged at that
SPEAKER_00:point. Okay. So no protection for you at all. And I get that loss of 20 grand must have felt painful. But when you're running through the numbers of that previous deal, you're buying them, let's say roughly 100,000 to pop, and they're worth that same day, 150 grand. You're making 350K on that. one deal a 20 grand upfront investment you don't want to lose that every day but to your point you know the the opportunity is it's a big upside if it goes well
SPEAKER_01:yeah absolutely um it is and and these sons are talking about now you know i listen to your podcast a lot and it's like i've been doing things the opposite to everybody else in a way like everything you I've got this upside on paper. It's on a balance sheet. It's on this. But the reality is I'm doing single less on leasehold properties. Interest rates have crept up. Overcosts have crept up. And that rental income has just been squeezed and squeezed and squeezed to zero or, in many cases, into negative. And what seems to happen over the years is these leasehold opportunities At the time, I'm thinking, oh, it's just because it's COVID. It's just because it's COVID. And then it's just because it's Grenfell. But there was also a deed of variation scandal, a little bit technical. But again, it's something that I mentioned earlier. You can be sold for about£1,000, but all these properties were getting nil valuations without a deed of variation. So you could buy properties and write the contract you know, I'll exchange or we'll go for the legal, but I'm going to do a deed of variation during the conveyancing process. And it's literally a couple of letters between your solicitor and the managing agency and get it sorted so I could mortgage it from day one. So you can buy something that, again, my general rule of thumb is about 30% of the way market value because that'll cover the bridge fees and then... the difference between a buy-to-let mortgage at 75% of actual value. So it means there's no money down. And I could acquire these properties and still can regularly to this day with some sort of planning issues, some sort of management issues. And you learn there's loads of ones to avoid that seem brilliant. and loads to stack up and you can't stack
SPEAKER_00:them all up as well I get that point about being asset rich cash flow poor must be frustrating at times to think well we own all these properties we've got a ton of equity but to your point as interest rates go up on a single let portfolio single lets are hard at the best of times I think in today's market they're a real struggle so with that sort of portfolio size, you almost feel it more the more properties you've got, I guess. Interest rates go up and across the board, your income comes down and you're like, wait, hang on a minute. This isn't...
SPEAKER_01:Massively. Like I say, we're a big chunk of them now. The rather is near zero or negative and maybe the best is in 200 pounds or something along those lines. But when you're on those figures and you have 20 in your portfolio, however many, and you're they're not making any money. Then as soon as a boiler goes, all this, all that, all this, all, for example, with leasehold stuff, all your service charges come at once. They come in December and they come in June, July. And then that might be 15, 20 grand each time. Christmas
SPEAKER_00:is cancelled, kids.
SPEAKER_01:So it's tough. And like I said, the more I've grown recently, the tougher it's got in many ways and going, right, well, come on, new strategies need to be adopted. It's always when people have said they're hard at the best of times, I've always thought, what's everyone's problem? Well, other people manage them. I've got all the time in the underworld. This is so easy. And then what happens is in reality, you know, I think I'm actually always very good at planning. You know, I don't always just see the good times, but I must have been a little bit guilty of that. And then, like I say, And I've always said, well, interest rates might creep up. Well, yeah, I've planned for that. Don't worry. There's plenty in there. But then interest rates have creeped up. But also because of the building safety app that's gone off, the cost for these management agents to look after these buildings now is monumental. The cost of the health and safety while the do works, not just while we're managing it every single day, has gone up monumentally. The cost of insuring these buildings, especially if they still have cladding issues, has gone up monumentally. So... I was planning for interest rates being higher than this, and there's always a big safety net. Luckily, I've got a decent chunk of savings. But being met with both issues at the same time has been a really, really tough
SPEAKER_00:time, for sure. And how did it go from there then? So you start to see these other opportunities, you think, and maybe we could be doing something alongside the buy-to-lets. Were you out there... knocking on doors, looking for bigger deals straight away? Did you have an idea of what you were looking for, where you were looking for? Yeah,
SPEAKER_02:I mean,
SPEAKER_01:I wrote down what we do like with the mastermind. I wrote down my goals, where I needed to be, where I wanted to be, and then broke that down to say realistically. What do you need to do to get there? So, you know, I tell everyone, I'm not shy about it. I want my net cash flow to be five grand a month. Sorry, 50 grand a month in five years' time. And I don't want it to stop there. That's just a five-year goal. It's going to have to readjust and go bigger from there. I don't want a Lamborghini or to sit here with a fancy watch in the screen or anything like that. It's very much a... family-orientated goal and a need for safety and security free of fear of financial, you know, headaches or having to cut back on this or not be able to send the kids to that school or go on these, whatever it is, all those things really, really drive, energize me. I want a significant amount of stock market and I also want to dedicate a big amount to like charity as well so that's my reason that's my justification and then when you cash flow that on a piece of paper to say 50 grand in five years or actually the later ones actually you know I want a million pound a year basically in income from property that can be managed on its own and I can still be off doing these pursuits of my charity work That's a hell of a lot of isolate. It does not work. So let's research what strategies do. And then the number one, for me, it would be HMOs. Now, another one I was looking at is the whole social housing world, and there's a lot of people making a hell of a lot of money. I don't know how stable that market is. And I don't know what people's exit strategies are, if they have exit strategies, if the tide turns and things change. Whereas I can see a much more direct need and route in the HMO market to protect yourself from any downsides. And I don't think any of them are on the horizon anytime soon. anyway with the HMO world. So that was my justification. And then on top of the HMO world, I thought, well, you look largely like battle of right move again. And I just haven't got the time to be doing that. And I found that 90% of sources... either don't know a good deal or they're just trying to sell any old shit so I realised that I had to take the sort of continue to take the sort of thing into my own hands and then I found that the least friction able to do that with the largest upsides is not only HMOs but it would be commercial conversions into HMOs and on a side of multi-unit blocks of flats as well, where rather than the previous deals I was talking about, there was still leasehold properties, still had no control of the freehold, and there was still all these costs to pay, whereas if I bought blocks in areas where it costs more to build flats, that will also be a very complementary strategy. Less cash flow in the HMOs, but worth it, and I think the capital appreciation will be slightly better, so... That's my current theory and direction.
SPEAKER_00:Okay. And how did the building in Ashton come to light? When did you first come across that?
SPEAKER_01:Well, I went on a one-day training course on commercial conversions. I had zero experience of commercial property beforehand. The opening line was like, you know, don't just sit there and get educated and then never do anything about it. So I subscribed to EIG auction software, which basically has the catalog for everything. Well, not every, but 90% of the auction market. And I received one, which was this beautiful building, which I now own. And I was on holiday at the time. And the gist of it was, it's a very large building in a decent area. And the list price was small. I know the auctioneers have bought off them before. So I fancied that, you know, sometimes when your list is really low, it flies, right? And it's nowhere to be seen. But I thought, how many people in the market for this type of asset? Also, the full auction pack wasn't live yet. I think I flew back on the Friday from the holidays. We had one final viewing on the Saturday. And I thought, if I don't even go to that now, then what an idiot. When I say ruined my holiday, it was feeling really exciting. I was loving it. But I spent a lot of time just daydreaming, thinking about everything. So I was like, at the very least, we turned up to that viewing. So I turned up to the viewing and it was packed and there was people in suits, tape measures. people bringing in clients. People have obviously paid for people to help them with this. The buildings, it's 12,000 square foot. I think the largest property I've ever bought before that for a flip was about two and a half thousand. There wasn't very many. The scale of it is four stories. It's got this beautiful Victorian architectural features. The ceiling height in each floor is probably four meters. It's just nuts. And yes, I was meant to be a building surveyor, but I didn't really learn anything from that world. I didn't have a disco. I didn't have anything with me. I looked around and thought, that building's in really good nick. And what more do we need to know realistically to be able to price up a refurb of rough cost, what I can turn it into and go and have a look around. So whilst everyone was busy inspecting things and trying to uncover things that may or may not be hiding, I spoke to the people at the reception and one of the guys was from the council who owned the building. He said he'd looked after the building since the council had owned it in 2007 and would he like to assist me on the walking around. So I said, yeah, I'd absolutely love that. So we went top to bottom. He said, you know, As a compliance point of view, this building is perfect. We are the council. If we don't stay on top of compliance, who else would? We listed all the works that had got done, which I may or may not have noticed. You couldn't see the roof because it was, you know, yeah, we've done all the roof repairs and it's the original slates. Blah, blah, blah. You're like, right. Everything sounds pretty excellent to me. He said, oh, by the way, all asbestos has been removed from the property. The lift's certified and checked, although it is a little bit old. It says the only downside is the boiler is decommissioned, so you'll almost definitely need a new boiler. I just walked away. I was in there about half an hour. People looked like they were in there for hours anyway. I thought, we've got everything I need. I had an outstanding relationship with a solicitor at the time. But unfortunately, she changed roles soon after because she was just under too much stress with the current pace of how things went. But she was absolutely unbelievable and did absolutely everything for me. So I rang her and said, look, this auction's going on Monday, and I've been told they're not pulling it. They haven't got all the information yet, but it's going to be here. Are you okay to review the legal pack for me? and make sure everything's okay. She said, yeah, no problem. So she came back to me and says, you know, there's no issues here whatsoever. So I was like, right, fantastic. I think the entry price was, it was either 340 or 341. Oh, yeah, and I bought it for 341,500. I was the only bidder. So then I went down the rabbit hole of let's cost it out accurately. What's it going to be? What makes the most money? What makes sense in the area? And what won by a country mile was... HMOs.
SPEAKER_00:Now, it wasn't plain sailing from that point on though, right? Your first HMO application was refused.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it certainly was, yeah. So, I met a private consultant who I've worked with before and he came to me and said, I'm not even going to charge for a feasibility study on this. He doesn't need one. What you're proposing is a hotline and synchro. Oh, fantastic. Not really done on page most before. This is the best pages of my life. And then, you know, lo and behold, you get the scheme drawn up, send it off. It gathered quite a significant amount of media attention. There was also a counsellor that was commenting on it and created a bit of problems. And he's actually just been suspended and he's going through investigations for a load of lag. really inappropriate behaviour and racism and all that sort of stuff. He's been investigated at the moment. He helped rally the troops, should we say.
SPEAKER_00:Got you. So did this end up at committee meeting? Is that where it was refused?
SPEAKER_01:It didn't. We just went to appeal and the planning inspectorate visited on... Tuesday was the day I went away. So I couldn't be there. I really wanted to be there, but I couldn't. So the planning consultants went on my behalf, showed them around, and then I got an email from the planning consultants the next day saying, you know, they had no issues. He spent two minutes in there before. It was a brilliant, brilliant place to do it. He said, you know, the decision will be here soon. So he said, expect to wait six weeks or three to six weeks, something like that. And then within a couple of hours, he emailed me and said, this has got to be a first in planning, but he's come back
SPEAKER_00:today and said it's approved. Out of interest, Joe, how long did that appeals process take start to finish? Because that's one of the concerns about, even though this wasn't a contentious application, people are a little bit intimidated by planning because they think, well, if it does go to committee and it's refused and we have to appeal, even if we know that we're in the right and it'll get approved, approved at appeal, it could still be maybe a 12-month delay. It sounds like this happened a lot quicker. It
SPEAKER_01:really was, actually. I don't have exact dates to hand, but I think the appeal process has probably been three months maximum. And during that time, we had to amend the odd document or stuff like that as well, which by the time it's gone to a consultant, to me, to the architect, to them, And then back through, we could have lost a couple of weeks in that as well, whereas if it wasn't summer holidays and people on leave at different times and stuff, that could have actually been reduced slightly.
SPEAKER_00:And talk me through the plans for it now. So you've got, did you say 12,000 square foot of... commercial building currently split over four floors. What's the vision? What are you going to bring to life there?
SPEAKER_01:The plan proposed for the ground floor to largely remain as commercial and none of the exteriors are changing. It's in a conservation area. It's not a listed building but it's in a conservation area and basically don't change any of the externals if you can help it or keep them to a minimal. So the ground floor is going to remain as commercial. That's got advertised in the last couple of weeks so we're looking for a tenant there. The first, second, and third are going to be converted into 16 studio en-suite HMOs. So they're all going to have their own kitchenettes or en-suites. And they are about 20 meters squared each. So they're really big, healthy rooms. There's some of them up to 25. I think the smallest might be 18. And then... In the basement, the basement is fully kitted out. It was offices. It's got ventilation down there, flooring, absolutely everything. Again, the floor to ceiling height is the same as all the other floors, about four meters. It's huge, but it doesn't have windows. And there's no way I can put windows in because I don't own the land on the outside of it. So that basically just had a huge amount of space. I could rent it commercially for... five grand a year if I'm lucky and it's a limited pool of people that are going to be interested in a space without windows or what I've decided to do is put an on-site gym, bookable meeting rooms, co-working space with offices with all gas stations each, a cinema room maybe in the breakout area and my thoughts are that's definitely for the HMOs but what I'm thinking of doing as well is to give the ground floor commercial 10 access to those facilities as well. So just trying to chat, you know, if a team of solicitors come in, accountants, it might have 10 staff, it might have one or two people using it at any one time. And it'll likely while the others are at work, there will never be three people in the gym at the time. And it might just give me a product that stands out more in a quite competitive or difficult commercial market in the area.
SPEAKER_00:And I mean, timeframe on a project like this, when do you think it will be complete?
SPEAKER_01:There's every reason it could be done in 12 months. However, it could be done in 12 months. I'm going to forecast, you know, 18. And there's going to be buffer. There's going to be a financial buffer of 24 months. Because the term I've used in the past is house bashing. You don't know what you're going to recover. You don't know what complications are unearthed and everything else. I'm very, very, very fortunate in the fact that my father-in-law is a building contractor. He's got a firm. with a£4 million turnover,£500 turnover. They build commercial units like Tesco's and United Union stuff and this, that and the other. And they do house building and flat building, Tesco's, co-ops, blah, blah, blah. And he's going to be doing the works for me. So he's that beautiful size where... He doesn't have a joiner. He has a team of joiners. He has a team of electricians. He has a team of plumbers. So he should be able to bash it out. That said, it took forever on the extension on my
SPEAKER_02:house.
SPEAKER_01:You forecast it, you stick to the program, and you try and mitigate where possible. But delays are common.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's a big project. There will be some contingency. We'll pencil in end of 2026 and check back in and see how you're getting on, I guess. That's good. Thank you. Um, in terms of, so, I mean, you've got, you've got a build team lined up, you've had planning approved recently, massive success funding a project like this. I can't imagine that's going to be cheap either.
SPEAKER_01:No, not at all. I'm on a bridge at the moment. The lenders are keen, very keen, obviously, to fully fund the project. So I won't need to be getting any money of my own in there. They really want it, obviously, because they'll make a lot of money out of it. But I'm looking to go down the private investment route. think there's the build cost I reckon I'm reserving about 700k for the build I think that would be pretty generous speaking to my father-in-law and I said that should be plenty and so maybe you know if I have a 700k I need to buy unless we're going to attract more and we're going to eradicate the bridge as well probably another 500 that we could play with there and which will leave a total loan of 1.2 million against a GDB of 1.92 million.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, so decent margin and it's still, I guess, open for business in terms of working with new investors and helping them be part of a project like this as well?
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely, yeah. I think I mentioned to you before, I've raised private investment for a number of years now, but it's normally been on the flat buying side. And what I'm doing with these flats is I'm still managing to buy them cheap. I'm actually managing to buy them a little bit cheaper than some of the previous examples. But I'm doing them on just a one-by-one rather than having to go through multiple units at a time. And I'm just trading them out and just spinning them picking the right ones in terms of management companies and knowing the headaches, et cetera, and just putting them on the market and selling. So I'm raising money for, or have raised money in the past for that sort of stuff and will probably continue to do so. But if people, you know, like a look at this project more, want to be involved in something a bit bigger, a bit more special, you know, there's sort of two strings to the bow going on at the moment of what I'm up to.
SPEAKER_00:I love it. And just one final question. You said your goals are pretty lofty, a million a year in income. It's a big number. To your point, almost impossible to reach that with single lets. You would need thousands of them. This project is, I guess, a bit of a case study for you. If this goes well, will it be... more of these do you have a a roadmap as to how you hit that million pounds yeah
SPEAKER_01:that's that you know that's what's got got to be done isn't it because otherwise they're unachievable so there's and also don't just in my opinion you've taught me actually but you don't just pick a number for fun it's i haven't picked a million pounds because it sounds nice like you know and everyone says you won't need that you won't need that and i'm saying I know I won't need it to spend but that's what I may need to achieve what I want to achieve and spend where I want to spend it and also have that safety net and that comfort and to still have that passion and ability to continue to try new things and do a bigger building site and it's going to be ground up development. In the last couple of days, a place with a commune and it had its own chateau for events and then there was communal swimming pool and tennis courts. I think if we don't really have that in the UK, that would fly. I want to do big things in property. But back to your question, this project... You know, all going well. We've tested the market with mock adverts and stuff like that as well. It should net cash flow me after mortgage, after maintenance, after absolutely everything, five grand a month from one asset. So, you know, a D10 more of them and a more different five-year goal would be tough to do. to 10 in this five years, but with more of an income coming in as well. I'm selling other stuff that isn't performing as well. I'm raising more cash that way. I'm going to private investment drive as well. I'm going to give it a bloody good go. And 10 more of these, I'll be really excited for. I'm already looking for my next one to start acquiring and putting through planning permission. I've got ways to streamline that really from what I've learned as well. So yeah, that's the plan. 5K, like I say, from one asset is beautiful, isn't it? It's huge. It's a heck of a lot more than a single let. It is. And that's me putting in a big reserve for management. And in reality, I'll be self-managing. I'll be bringing in a team in the house now to be self-managing the portfolio with that stuff included as well. So that cost will actually... or that income will actually increase and it will need to for the other ones I want them to say well here's one block everyone in there and this is it and we're doing a convey about system so then you'll be all geared up and perfect for the next block when it comes so
SPEAKER_00:yeah that's the plan. Exciting plans you've done so much so far But this next phase of your story, I think, is going to be exciting for people to watch and keep on top of. Where do you hang out? Where do you share details of what you're up to? How can people get in touch with you? And if they're interested in working with you on projects like this, where's the best place for them to find you?
SPEAKER_01:Sure, yeah. I mean, I say it all the time. I'm open to conversations with anyone, even if I can just help them. If you want someone who's passionate about property, I think you can help. I'm more than happy to have a chat with you. But especially so if you are interested in investing, because that's going to be a big concentration and drive of mine soon, or from now, basically. So get in touch. Instagram is usually the best. It's Joe Robertson Property. the same on Facebook and largely the same on LinkedIn as well, actually. But yeah, reach out. I'll send you a number. We
SPEAKER_00:can
SPEAKER_01:have a chat.
SPEAKER_00:Fab. Well, thank you for being such an open book with us today, Joe. It's been a blast having you on and I'm looking forward to seeing the progress. We'll be having our Christmas party 2026 in Ashton, right?
SPEAKER_01:We'll host the Mastermind Day at home as well, Mike.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, for sure. well I like I say I appreciate you squeezing us in enjoy your next holiday and yeah we'll speak again soon thanks for your time buddy all the best